I wanted to post this last week when there was debate about the Freegans going on at KW's and at Ducking for Apples, but they forgot to renew their domain name...

While I don't agree with the extremist nature of a lot of what they do (scavenging food from bins for example), I do wholeheartedly believe in the part of their sentiment that I've posted.

I think it's something most people choose to forget.

I would mostly agree as well. I don't think it's fair to hold everyone responsible for the job they do. There are people who are just scrabbling for any job they can get. But those who have the skills to have some sort of choice in their work should certainly accept responsibility for what they do.

This quote, regardless of the sentiment behind it, is why these types of groups fail to hit a tipping point. It's far too extremist and requires to big a leap for the majority of people to buy into the idea.

I agree with a lot of their thoughts (not all) and while radical thoughts require radical actions, this spanks of a lack of understanding of society, and how the large majority of people think.

The problem being, Gordon, that it *is* the actuality of what happens - the reality of the world in which we live.

Most people choose to ignore it.

I don't know how else they could get a message across other than by putting it in those terms.

It's then up to people who embrace the message, but not the extremism, to sell it more gently to others. In my own little way, that's what I try to do, bit by bit.

Many (most?) Anglo-Saxons do not understand the impact of the individual on society. They think "It's only little ole me, what difference can I make?" They don't realise that if everyone thinks as they do, the whole of our carefullyconstructed social system would grind to a halt. Our whole world order would collapse if everybody were freegan, for example. Would that be a bad thing? Possibly not, but I happen to think that major change is best made gently and thoughtfully.

If nobody but nutters and people with an axe to grind took up their right to vote, we would be ruled by nutters. Oh wait.

Individuality is an illusion, since we all depend on each other for survival. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we become better neighbours, better citizens, better friends.

This is one area that the French are vastly superior to the English in my opinion. (although not when it comes to nuclear testing in the South Pacific) Even Americans, supposedly in the land of the free and extreme individualism, are better at understanding the impact of their individual actions on society at large than the English.

I think we live in a cosy, smug bubble in which as long as we're all right, Jack, everything in the world is fine. So stop shopping at bloody tesco's, people, if you want to keep farmers farming in England! It's simple, really. Ask yourself what kind of a country you want in twenty-five years' time, not tomorrow. It's not all about price, surely?

I agree that it's difficult to change what the majority thinks, but I also second BW in saying how else can you get this sort of message across? It's a shame that many people are dismissed as 'extreme' because their message is unpopular rather than untrue...

The trouble is, e, that while everything shouldn't be about price, for some people, it still has to be because they simply don't have the choice. And it's not that Tesco's is inherently a bad thing, but rather that they cater to the masses, and they give them what they want/need/think they want/need, IMO. Vegetable deliveries and small farm shops are lovely, but they are still more expensive than the supermarket equivalent by quite some distance. And most people simply can't be arsed to grow things for themselves, I think.

I think that what I'm trying to say is that no-one can just "opt out" unless they're willing to do it completely, and forgo electricity, roads, schools, hospitals, and any form of social contact whatsoever. Recycling I whole-heartedly agree with.

These "freegans" are not quite the noble savages they'd have us believe, they're just bottom-feeders as far as I'm concerned. They do it not because they have to (which would be sad and defintely something to work on), but because of some warped sense of not belonging to something they can't actually escape without huge effort. Effort which I'll wager they are not able or willing to provide.

I have no objection to cheap food places- I have a major objection to tesco, who are wrecking the agriculture of the entire country for us, with the tacit agreement of many, many people who can afford not to be too worried about price.

I completely agree, e. There's also an extract on freegans and shoplifting on Tigers & Strawberries, which is most illuminating as to the hypocrisy of some freegans.

However, we have the system that we have because that is what most people want. And of course all the cows would not exist if we did not have farming etc etc and people who say, oh I am vegetarian and then use milk and cheese, well hello, where do they think it comes from??? Not only is the cow kept in slavery for them but the veal calf has to be done away with so that the milk is surplus. If you drink milk you ought to eat veal to balance the equation.

:) at Debster- you're quite right, of course. The boy calves, of a breed unsuitable for beef as they are bred for dairy suitability, are sold at two weeks of age, apparently.

We have the system we have because of Mr Tesco (and his ilk), and because, as e says, people don't think that they, individually, can make a difference (and with the speed at which the present Government are eroding our right to rights, they'll soon be correct). Make no mistake about it.

See Supermarket Sweep Up for more info...

However, I would have to interject that our (non-orghanic) neighbours are dairy farmers whose cows are outdoors all summer on glorious pasture, which is minimally maintained and fertilised using the manure from the cows -they have to be kept in open sheds throughout the soggy foggy winter to avoid ruining the fields with their hooves. They don't seem unhappy, apart from when their calves are taken away. They are well treated, and this by farmers who are pretty conventional. Just to say not all dairy farming is carried out in three storey forcing sheds, cows with udders dragging on the ground etc. But the thing about the male calves is still true.

Btw, as an insensitive quasi-French person, I have never understood the outcry about veal. Surely as long as it's kindly reared (and I believe than crating is now totally outlawed), there's nothing more intrinsically cruel about it than eating beef, is there? The calves are still fed mother's milk, except it comes from a bucket rather than a teat. They are kept in cosy pens with a few comrades. They are warm and dry. So what if they do live a very short life?

Whilst I understand the truth behind the message I'd offer the current climate in society as proof that it's not being heeded. This was my point.

As you say, BW, you temper the 'extreme truth' and try to educate rather than force-feed (with a side helping of vitriol), and altogether better way to handle things. Yes it WILL take more time.

As for people who can't be arsed to grow their food, that's not a new problem, and surely why it's so hard to get people (myself included) to switch. Hundreds of years of consumerism and it's only now with the rise of the internet that minority movements have a voice. Surely it's rather naive to expect a dramatic switch on such a fundamental societal level (no, not sure of societal is a word!).