Comments: Seaside and dishwashers

Which model did you go for? My Miele has died.

Posted by Debster on 7 September, 2023 at 10:57 PM

Our first new dishwasher here, I think a Kenmore-maybe same as Whirlpool, lasted ~4 years. We replaced it with a Bosch in 2018 and it's still runs and almost looks like new. Can't remember how long the warranty was but thankfully haven't needed it.

Posted by Scoakat on 7 September, 2023 at 11:36 PM

Bosch = Siemens = Gaggenau = Neff!

Our current machine is Neff, now 7½ years old without fault. If a dishwasher failed in under, say, four years, it was arguably not fit for purpose irrespective of the guarantee period.

Posted by Tim W. on 8 September, 2023 at 7:49 AM

Scoakat - that is encouraging, thanks.

Debster - there are 5 Bosch machines that are in the 5 year guarantee offer, all of them the 6 series, which are the ones with smart connectivity, although they don't have to be connected to work. There are 2 freestanding models, 2 integrated models, and one that I think only comes in non-white. See:

The freestanding ending 48 is the quietest dishwasher on the market (42dB) at anything sub-£1,000, but the other freestanding one is £120 less, and has just a cutlery drawer at the top, whereas the 48 model has a top (3rd) basket for small things (half of which will slide back to give more room in the middle basket), and a cutlery basket, so you can remove and reorder to suit what you want to use.

Which? give good scores to some of the 2 and 4 series Bosch too, but they only come with 2 year guarantees and no-one seems to give extra free years now (eg JL used to, and so did the Euronics group of independents).

I did toy with the idea of buying the cheapest good review machine that has a cutlery drawer (a Hisense) which Which? rated, but reviews from real people didn't, plus it was more expensive to run. There are still a couple of dishwashers around for below £300, but none are economical or quiet, and running costs far outweigh purchase price these days.

For any machine, once out of guarantee, sadly it is not economical to repair it these days, unless you can do it yourself (and most modern machines have so much circuitry that you need the specialist diagnostic gadgets to know what is wrong with them anyway).

There are also far fewer offers on white goods than there used to be, and very few shops where you can go to see the quality, so it's a case of looking online for freebies on delivery, disposal of old machine etc etc, depending on what you need. Down south I swore by the local independent/Euronics dealer (great price, free same-day delivery, free installation and free disposal), but the nearest one to here is not cheap, and charges extra for everything.

If you're not bothered about quietness, there is a lot more choice, but the build qualities of the cheaper ones are truly awful (the weight of the machine will tell you a lot), and many reviews say that when the baskets/basket mechansims break after a few months, the guarantees don't now cover replacement and the spare parts are half the cost of the purchase price.

Given the poor build quality of current Mieles, and that they only give 2 year guarantees, I truly wouldn't bother buying another if I were you. Gone are the days of premium price for premium product. The base machine is just over £800 (they had it in Costco so I've seen it), and the baskets didn't even pull out smoothly on a brand new machine!

If you tell me your main requirements, whether you want freestanding or integrated, and what you are prepared to spend, I can probably point you to something that might suit you, as all the info is still in my head, but who knows for how much longer!

Posted by Blue Witch on 8 September, 2023 at 8:39 AM

Tim - things have been happening between the various parts of that group (ownership, groupings, distribution - Google it!) and all the old wisdom about what is good and isn't no longer applies. Ditto warranties, availability of spares etc etc.

While I totally agree with your 'fit for purpose' arguments, you will never get a manufacturer to agree, so you will end up in legal wrangles if you want to pursue it, and, these days, probably lose (so yet more money down the drain). Plus, when a dishwasher breaks down, who has time to put together a claim, complete with the relevant legal phraseology (which all needs researching), then to wait months for the results of small claims court proceedings?

Hence my view that costs of a dishwasher should be compared by using the total 'cost of ownership' formula:

initial cost + energy cost + water cost + consumables cost (different machines need different things these days and many now do a disinfecting cycle so don't need expensive dishwasher cleaners and fresheners) divided by number of years of warranty. This gives you an annual cost, and is the only way to compare. If you get more years than the warranty period, it will be fortunate. Plus I'll bet that connected ones (if allowed to connect) report back on usage etc so the manufacturers can install some fault messages with a firmware update just after the guarantee ends.

Annoyingly it's very hard to find the exact energy consumption figures without digging deep in the manufacturers' websites and downloadable manuals. The generic figure of eg 95kWh per 100 cycles is meaningless as none of the cycles are identical, so it's a case of looking up what you will use to get a true figure.

And don't get me started on how often model numbers/specs are updated, so how soon quality best buy advice goes out of date... That excellent Samsung you kindly helped me research a couple of years ago now no longer features in anything recommended.

Posted by Blue Witch on 8 September, 2023 at 9:21 AM

I need an integrated one to fill the space that doesn't smell. I prefer washing up by hand unless I've got loads to do. I think the current dead one is around 30 years old?

Posted by Debster on 10 September, 2023 at 10:52 AM

Debster - all dishwashers will smell if you don't use them frequently - it's the warmth that causes the bacteria in the water left in the sump to grow.

If you're not going to use it a lot I'd say go for the cheapest one you can - and there are plenty around £300. Curry's Logik range have good reviews. they're not the cheapest to run, but even so will be cheaper than heating water for hand washing

Will a free standing one not fit into the integrated hole? They are cheaper and there is more choice.

Posted by Blue Witch on 10 September, 2023 at 11:06 AM

Well it's got half a door and the plinth at the bottom. There used to be water gradually coming up through the hole at the bottom which ponged. So I ran it at least once a month to clear it through but then it stopped producing clean plates and there were occasional puddles and then all the lights came on and I had to turn it off at the wall to stop it. Thanks I might look at the Logik. Got to get rid of a large dying ash tree first ...

Posted by Debster on 10 September, 2023 at 8:38 PM

Ouch, sounds expensive.
Ash dieback?

A freestanding dishwasher will have a bottom bit that substitutes for a plinth. Sometimes the doors are fixed on so that they don't come off easily, so may not be in a fit state to re-fit onto a new integrated machine anyway. I reckon a freestanding model would fit in, but I guess it's all down to aesthetics.

A slimline diswasher sounds like it would fit your needs better, but it won't fit your kitchen holes!

Washing up by hand is my most hated task, and I have no idea how you can like it!

Posted by Blue Witch on 11 September, 2023 at 8:50 AM

I'm a perfectionist. I'm happy to leave a tower of Babel of dirty things in the sink until I start running out of nice spoons but when I do get round to cleaning them I make sure they are Clean.

Posted by Debster on 11 September, 2023 at 11:55 PM

And yes ash dieback.

Posted by Debster on 11 September, 2023 at 11:56 PM

Our last dishwasher, a Bosch, must have lasted something around that average life span. It could probably have lasted longer if someone competent had tried to repair its minor fault, instead of me.

Its replacement, a Siemens, I chose because of the cutlery drawer but honestly I find the reduction of vertical space more irritating than the convenience.

Bosch and Siemens have been the same company for domestic appliances for decades, I think.

Posted by Ian on 12 September, 2023 at 9:35 AM

Ian - while researching dishwashers, I found that Bosch bought Siemens out of their long-standing partnership in 2015 for 3 billion Euros.

You're making me feel better about spending the extra £120 to get 3rd drawer plus cutlery basket, so if I find what you did (which remains my concern as we have 26cm dinner plates - standard are 24cm apaprently - and big wine glasses) I can still remove the 3rd drawer.

Posted by Blue Witch on 12 September, 2023 at 4:27 PM

Debster - nothing hand-done (by me anyway) cleans like a dishwasher, which is why ours is often on twice a day, even with only 2 of us. Everything goes in. Absolutely everything.

Posted by Blue Witch on 12 September, 2023 at 4:29 PM

That's the trouble with dishwashers and similar appliances, isn't it - you can't take them for a test drive and see if they work for you

Posted by Ian on 13 September, 2023 at 8:12 AM

Yep, and there is almost nowhere you can go these days to see models in the flesh, and most chain stores don't have individual store telephone numbers so you can't even ring up to ask what model numbers they have on view.

Euronics members sometimes have more on view than most, as they are independents, but group buying, but geographical coverage is patchy.

If manufacturers would only give dimensions of plates that would fit in each basket, it would be much simpler. The best reviews are those where people say the diameter and heights of items they manage to fit in. Even Which? don't do that.

Posted by Blue Witch on 13 September, 2023 at 9:16 AM