The insurance on my recently purchased used electric car is less than on the diesel it replaced, despite the former being valued 10x more. The tyres cost about the same, and I was offered a 0% non PCP finance deal on it from the dealer (and because I don't have mortgage, etc, my credit history is basically a blank). And if you drive for a 100000km the reduced emissions offset those generated in manufacture
The aircon isn't quite as simple as a simple 2016 divide, but there should be a label telling you which type you need under the bonnet (R134a or R1234yf)
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 7:46 AM
Well, I don't know where/how you got those deals Ian, or on which brand, but we have researched it extensively, and they're certainly not there for us, where we live. For instance, insurance on a new small electric car is three times what we currently pay.
I'd posit there are few people who buy electric cars who'd keep them for 100,000kms - at which point the batteries will be fairly naff. Do you know how much water is needed to mine the lithium used in the batteries? 400 to 2 million litres of water per kilo.
We also know a couple of early adopters who have gone back to fossil fuel cars due to problems they've had with the technology, and with finding charging on longer journeys.
The future of motoring (and home heating actually) isn't electric, it's synthetic fuels and hydrogen (and maybe other technologies not yet invented). It's just the government keep pusing eectric as the only answer, and it isn't. Interesting that Toyota are heading in other directions now.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:08 AM
I drive an electric car, not particularly for environmental reasons, but because for us the fuel is free from solar panels on the house roof. I'm not evangelical about it.
Opening a window at higher speeds uses more of whatever fuel you use by adding drag. And at lower speeds, there is more exposure to air pollution. AC is also invaluable in high-humidity conditions.
Posted by Tim W. on 30 July, 2024 at 8:17 AM
Agreed on the reasons for needing aircon Tim, which is why we needed to regas them.
I'm still amazed how easy it is, and quick (15 minutes tops), which makes me wonder how garages make it sound such a mystery and charge so much.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:25 AM
Ian - ah, I've just re-read your comment and I missed the 'used' first time round.
Our philosophy on cars is buy them new (we don't want to inherit other people's problems) and keep them until they are no longer economic.
I was talking only about deals on new EVs.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:30 AM
There was an interesting survey by a national fleet management company recently. Summarising:
The first tyre change for electric cars is taking place at an average of 17,985 miles and 551 days old, compared to 24,641 miles and 585 days for hybrids, and 24,335 and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars.
The average replacement tyre fitted to an EV was 18.59 inches and cost £207 while, for petrol and diesel cars, the corresponding figures were 17.40 inches and £130.
So, if my maths works, on this basis, an average EV tyre costs 1.15p per mile per corner, so 4.6p per mile for the car, whereas an average diesel/petrol car tyre costs 0.52p per mile or 2.1 pence per mile for the car.
This makes an average EV fleet tyre just over double the running cost of a tyre fitted to an average fleet petrol/diesel car
Posted by Mr BW on 30 July, 2024 at 1:10 PM
Yes, it was used, but from a main dealer with 5.5 years left of the warranty. The battery is included in that warranty. 100,000km is only 60,000 miles
Tyres might be more expensive on average, but I doubt that servicing is.
The future might be hydrogen, but seeing as there are no manufacturers offering a hydrogen car, that's moot.
I've achieved a 300 mile range without any effort at all; my only issue is that my wife, who didn't like driving my previous car, really likes the electric one and keeps making up excuses to steal it
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 2:11 PM
Crikey - that's tyres at least every couple of years for any type of fuel. All I can say is that the drivers of the cars surveyed must have very heavy feet and use the pedals without much vehicle sympathy. My tyres (and brake pads) last a good deal longer than that!
Posted by Tim W. on 30 July, 2024 at 2:14 PM
Ian - when you live where we do, most trips to anywhere we know people are more than 300 miles (and I'll bet you don't get 300 miles between charges in a couple of years time). Hence the problem with unreliable access to charging. I don't think the future is hydrogen, I think it is in lots of different fuels - including sythetic fuels to run in existing vehicles, plus other technologies not yet invented.
Tim - ours too. But, these are company cars and few people treat a company car as they would their own. As many (most?) second hand cars in this country are ex-rental or ex-fleet or ex-PCP, that is why we never buy used cars.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 2:52 PM
Tim, yes I agree, but remember this was a survey by a fleet company where feet are generally a little heavier on the pedals and mileage higher than average, but it is the comparison that is interesting as of course the drivers are basically the same.
Also of course the government needs to work out how to get tax out of EV drivers to replace the fuel they aren't using. First is the loss of the EV vehicle tax exemption from next year, next...
And Ian yes I fear you are right about hydrogen. Decisions have been made and, as owners of Betamax recorders may recall, being better doesn't always matter.
Posted by Mr BW on 30 July, 2024 at 3:04 PM
I read somewhere that EV cars are much heavier than non-EV - presumably the weight of the batteries. Does this explain the wear and tear on the tyres. Also it must have an effect on the wear and tear of the road surface.
Posted by Caroline Greenwell on 30 July, 2024 at 3:34 PM
Mr Good Friend BW (63 year old pertrolhead) says similarly Caroline.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 4:18 PM
Electric vehicles are heavier, but not "much heavier"; for example a Kia niro EV is about 150kg heavier than the standard version. But both of them are significantly heavier (about 700kg more than a focus, for example) than vehicles of 20 years ago
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 6:16 PM
But why are new cars so much heavier? Because they are larger (unfortunately)?
Heavier cars do more damage to everything, including objects/individuals hit.
The insurance on my recently purchased used electric car is less than on the diesel it replaced, despite the former being valued 10x more. The tyres cost about the same, and I was offered a 0% non PCP finance deal on it from the dealer (and because I don't have mortgage, etc, my credit history is basically a blank). And if you drive for a 100000km the reduced emissions offset those generated in manufacture
https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/how-clean-are-electric-cars/
The aircon isn't quite as simple as a simple 2016 divide, but there should be a label telling you which type you need under the bonnet (R134a or R1234yf)
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 7:46 AMWell, I don't know where/how you got those deals Ian, or on which brand, but we have researched it extensively, and they're certainly not there for us, where we live. For instance, insurance on a new small electric car is three times what we currently pay.
I'd posit there are few people who buy electric cars who'd keep them for 100,000kms - at which point the batteries will be fairly naff. Do you know how much water is needed to mine the lithium used in the batteries? 400 to 2 million litres of water per kilo.
We also know a couple of early adopters who have gone back to fossil fuel cars due to problems they've had with the technology, and with finding charging on longer journeys.
The future of motoring (and home heating actually) isn't electric, it's synthetic fuels and hydrogen (and maybe other technologies not yet invented). It's just the government keep pusing eectric as the only answer, and it isn't. Interesting that Toyota are heading in other directions now.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:08 AMI drive an electric car, not particularly for environmental reasons, but because for us the fuel is free from solar panels on the house roof. I'm not evangelical about it.
Opening a window at higher speeds uses more of whatever fuel you use by adding drag. And at lower speeds, there is more exposure to air pollution. AC is also invaluable in high-humidity conditions.
Posted by Tim W. on 30 July, 2024 at 8:17 AMAgreed on the reasons for needing aircon Tim, which is why we needed to regas them.
I'm still amazed how easy it is, and quick (15 minutes tops), which makes me wonder how garages make it sound such a mystery and charge so much.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:25 AMIan - ah, I've just re-read your comment and I missed the 'used' first time round.
Our philosophy on cars is buy them new (we don't want to inherit other people's problems) and keep them until they are no longer economic.
I was talking only about deals on new EVs.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 8:30 AMThere was an interesting survey by a national fleet management company recently. Summarising:
The first tyre change for electric cars is taking place at an average of 17,985 miles and 551 days old, compared to 24,641 miles and 585 days for hybrids, and 24,335 and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars.
The average replacement tyre fitted to an EV was 18.59 inches and cost £207 while, for petrol and diesel cars, the corresponding figures were 17.40 inches and £130.
So, if my maths works, on this basis, an average EV tyre costs 1.15p per mile per corner, so 4.6p per mile for the car, whereas an average diesel/petrol car tyre costs 0.52p per mile or 2.1 pence per mile for the car.
This makes an average EV fleet tyre just over double the running cost of a tyre fitted to an average fleet petrol/diesel car
Posted by Mr BW on 30 July, 2024 at 1:10 PMYes, it was used, but from a main dealer with 5.5 years left of the warranty. The battery is included in that warranty. 100,000km is only 60,000 miles
Tyres might be more expensive on average, but I doubt that servicing is.
The future might be hydrogen, but seeing as there are no manufacturers offering a hydrogen car, that's moot.
I've achieved a 300 mile range without any effort at all; my only issue is that my wife, who didn't like driving my previous car, really likes the electric one and keeps making up excuses to steal it
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 2:11 PMCrikey - that's tyres at least every couple of years for any type of fuel. All I can say is that the drivers of the cars surveyed must have very heavy feet and use the pedals without much vehicle sympathy. My tyres (and brake pads) last a good deal longer than that!
Posted by Tim W. on 30 July, 2024 at 2:14 PMIan - when you live where we do, most trips to anywhere we know people are more than 300 miles (and I'll bet you don't get 300 miles between charges in a couple of years time). Hence the problem with unreliable access to charging. I don't think the future is hydrogen, I think it is in lots of different fuels - including sythetic fuels to run in existing vehicles, plus other technologies not yet invented.
Tim - ours too. But, these are company cars and few people treat a company car as they would their own. As many (most?) second hand cars in this country are ex-rental or ex-fleet or ex-PCP, that is why we never buy used cars.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 2:52 PMTim, yes I agree, but remember this was a survey by a fleet company where feet are generally a little heavier on the pedals and mileage higher than average, but it is the comparison that is interesting as of course the drivers are basically the same.
Also of course the government needs to work out how to get tax out of EV drivers to replace the fuel they aren't using. First is the loss of the EV vehicle tax exemption from next year, next...
And Ian yes I fear you are right about hydrogen. Decisions have been made and, as owners of Betamax recorders may recall, being better doesn't always matter.
Posted by Mr BW on 30 July, 2024 at 3:04 PMI read somewhere that EV cars are much heavier than non-EV - presumably the weight of the batteries. Does this explain the wear and tear on the tyres. Also it must have an effect on the wear and tear of the road surface.
Posted by Caroline Greenwell on 30 July, 2024 at 3:34 PMMr Good Friend BW (63 year old pertrolhead) says similarly Caroline.
Posted by Blue Witch on 30 July, 2024 at 4:18 PMElectric vehicles are heavier, but not "much heavier"; for example a Kia niro EV is about 150kg heavier than the standard version. But both of them are significantly heavier (about 700kg more than a focus, for example) than vehicles of 20 years ago
Posted by Ian on 30 July, 2024 at 6:16 PMBut why are new cars so much heavier? Because they are larger (unfortunately)?
Posted by Blue Witch on 31 July, 2024 at 7:52 AMHeavier cars do more damage to everything, including objects/individuals hit.